Curse

Konig Des Todes · Jun 27, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

While working on the revision of the Lore article on the official wiki, a sentence from the History of Tyria hit me...

Quote:

Originally Posted by History of Tyria

Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature.

The four schools cannot be controled by one creature, but what if four creatures worked together? Wouldn't those four then get the power of one prior to the bloodstones?

The thought came to me in rememberance of a book where there was a commune of magicians who worked together and combined their magic to overpower solitary magicians. So the thought came to me, would it be at all possible to make a small "commune" of magicians and then be able to achieve the power once obtainable prior to the bloodstone creation?

Random thoughts with random rambling. Discuss.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jun 27, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Chimeric Drakes already broke the rule, all four elements if I recall correctly. Not really anything to do with your idea but it was the first thing I though off when reading the quote.

Helix Dreadlock · Jun 27, 2009, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Ha Ha!

Then why would we need elementalists? lol

I just think it's basic lore, the backbone of the storyline. There would be too much power, and we could hit Abaddon with a flyswater and get a deep wound on him, lol.

thetechx · Jun 27, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Chimeric Drakes already broke the rule, all four elements if I recall correctly. Not really anything to do with your idea but it was the first thing I though off when reading the quote.

I dont think it means air, earth, fire, water. It doesnt say elements. It says magics. I think it means monk, mesmer, necromancer, and elementalist. The four original magic casting professions.

Operative 14 · Jun 27, 2009, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Same article, expanded quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by History of Tyria

The forging of the world was complete. As their final act, the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other four couldn’t be reassembled.
Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction, aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest.

So it seems your conjecture is right Konig.

I think the point was that any one creature wielding that much power is just too much. If that much power is to be used, it has to be used by a group that has reached consensus in what they intend to do.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 27, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerwyn Nasilan

Chimeric Drakes already broke the rule, all four elements if I recall correctly. Not really anything to do with your idea but it was the first thing I though off when reading the quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thetechx

I dont think it means air, earth, fire, water. It doesnt say elements. It says magics. I think it means monk, mesmer, necromancer, and elementalist. The four original magic casting professions.

Thetechx is right here Four SCHOOLS of magic are not the four elements. Any elementalist can use all four elements at once - in fact there are skills that support the use of multiple elements!

And for reference sake - for schools of magic=Preservation(Monk), Aggression(Necromancer), Destruction(Elementalist), and Denial(Mesmer).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Helix Dreadlock

Ha Ha!

Then why would we need elementalists? lol

I just think it's basic lore, the backbone of the storyline. There would be too much power, and we could hit Abaddon with a flyswater and get a deep wound on him, lol.

Elementalists has nothing to do with the thread except for that the magic school of destruction supposedly equals the elementalist profession.

And the "there would be too much power" is why I ask this - is this a currently unthought process (in Tyria/Lore, that is) that could in fact bypass the bloodstones?

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Operative 14

Same article, expanded quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by History of Tyria

The forging of the world was complete. As their final act, the gods gathered back their gift of magic from all the races and trapped it inside a tall stone. They smashed the stone into five parts—four equal but opposing stones of magic, and one keystone. Without the keystone, the other four couldn’t be reassembled.
Each of the first four stones was the embodiment of a specific school of magic: preservation, destruction, aggression, and denial. Magic would still exist in the world, but the devastating power of all four types together would never again be at the command of one single creature. Those who accepted the gift would have to cooperate if they intended to use it to its fullest.

So it seems your conjecture is right Konig.

I think the point was that any one creature wielding that much power is just too much. If that much power is to be used, it has to be used by a group that has reached consensus in what they intend to do.

Doh! Haha, I should read the whole thing next time. /facepalm

Now a new question comes into play: Why is there no documentation of such a cooperation happening? HAS it ever been done?

OoO Rift OoO · Jun 27, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I think where it says "thoes who accept the gift would have to cooperate to gain the fullest blah blah" is piecing together a "team" like guild wars...which could also be the "documentation" of thiis happening

Iunno, a hunch.

And maybe the gift of more than one magic are the primary and secondary professions... :>

Konig Des Todes · Jun 27, 2009, 04:20 AM // 04:20

I did think about teams and guilds, however that is not exactly what I mean by combining magic - I mean combining the actual spell - where teams and guilds are just working together. Two different concepts.

As for the "gift of more than one magic" - before the bloodstones, looking at it in a game-mechanic and lore view, people basically had 4 professions, with all "primary attributes" (i.e., no limitations in the other schools) while with the bloodstones, you can only tap two schools of magic - the second one being limited.

Operative 14 · Jun 27, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

It basically sounds like what we had before the bloodstones would have been a 'God Mode" as it were, where everyone could run around with maxed out attributes; healing themselves with the full power of a Monk while nuking people with the power of an Elementalist, summoning an army of minions like only a Necromancer can and interrupting their foes in the annoying way that Mesmers do.

The Bloodstones put a limit to that because having that kind of power is too dangerous in only one persons possession. At that point, any single person could cause a huge amount of devastation, let alone gangs of these people working together. As it stands now, we're sort of limited by not being able to do everything by ourselves. Sure, an Elementalist could go on a rampage nowadays, but a combination of the other three could stop them. And if you want to cause that sort of devastation, you need the cooperation of other people agreeing that it's a good course of action.

If you're right, and those four powers can be attributed directly to the core casting professions, that seems like the most plausible explanation.

gremlin · Jun 27, 2009, 08:19 AM // 08:19

I remember one of the early descriptions of Mesmers,was that they manipulated raw power, they can speed up reduce or block the flow used by others.

They use the power before its changed by some god or ritual to become "magic"
So the four "magics" could be Monk Necro Elementalist and Ranger.
So you have powers of Life Death Elements and Nature.

Its just speculation
All the classes use some form of magic and its probable that the system has been amended so much that some Lore now seems out of step with the rest.

xanarot · Jun 27, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

As you can read in the quote you posted yourself, the only limit is that 1 creature cant control all 4 of them.

So if the 4 different creatues work together nothing special happens, as it will still prevent 1 creature from controlling all 4 schools.

Quite simple really, called reading.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 27, 2009, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

I remember one of the early descriptions of Mesmers,was that they manipulated raw power, they can speed up reduce or block the flow used by others.

They use the power before its changed by some god or ritual to become "magic"
So the four "magics" could be Monk Necro Elementalist and Ranger.
So you have powers of Life Death Elements and Nature.

Its just speculation
All the classes use some form of magic and its probable that the system has been amended so much that some Lore now seems out of step with the rest.

Rangers and Warriors don't have any magic. The four schools link to Elementalist, Monk, Necromancer, and Mesmer. And Ritualists seem to have an incomplete tap into Preservation and Destruction while maintaining their old non-schools of magic which called upon their ancestors. It was Ritualists, not Mesmers, who used magic before it was given by the gods.

Which is completely off-topic. Kinda.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xanarot

As you can read in the quote you posted yourself, the only limit is that 1 creature cant control all 4 of them.

So if the 4 different creatues work together nothing special happens, as it will still prevent 1 creature from controlling all 4 schools.

Quite simple really, called reading.

You are not understanding me or what I mean. Four creatures working together to create one spell - it won't be one creature controlling all four schools but four creatures controlling four schools in one spell!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me re-explain, since people don't seem to get it.

I mean multiple schools of magic on a single spell. For example, take the lost scrolls. They use magic from all four schools in a single spell.

What I'm asking to be discussed is is it possible for four creatures of magical talent that each control a different school of magic to create a very powerful spell?

Sir Franz · Jun 27, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

What I'm asking to be discussed is is it possible for four creatures of magical talent that each control a different school of magic to create a very powerful spell?

I would say yes, as Monk Blaze Bloodbane, Necromancer Red Eye the Unholy, Mesmer Ghast Ashpyre, Elementalist Jaw Smokeskin are all at the Cauldron of Cataclysm preforming a ritual to summon the searing. Now that being said the searing is a special case and might not be a good example because of the titans involvement and the need for the cauldron.

Konig Des Todes · Jun 27, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

The reason why I didn't bring up the Searing is because in the cinematic, it's only the Elementalist boss at the Cauldron - with warriors surrounding it. So it's hard to tell if all four caster bosses casted the spell, or it if was just the elementalist who did a similar thing as Khilbron with the Cataclysm *use an artifact that was created before the Bloodstones, thus not being limited in it's power*.

Gmr Leon · Jun 27, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

I mean multiple schools of magic on a single spell. For example, take the lost scrolls. They use magic from all four schools in a single spell.

That's the speculation, at least. As to the question..It would be limited to a max of usage of three schools of magic, to a minimum of the obvious one school of magic. As it said, no one creature can control all four, but they could easily control one to three schools. This is likely why the professions aren't so clearly cut into the Four Schools of Magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

What I'm asking to be discussed is is it possible for four creatures of magical talent that each control a different school of magic to create a very powerful spell?

It seems possible, I certainly don't see why not, really. However, I think the creatures of magical talent would have to have studied the very primal forces of magic to create spells, even in one of the Schools of Magic. This would mean that I would suspect several different characteristics of any of the four of magical talent:

Elderly. It seems possible, if human, at least, that it would take years of research into these primal forces.
Expertise. By conducting the research, and spending many years on it, they would be "experts" on that school of magic. At the same time, though, this means they could easily be completely ignorant of other subjects.
Reclusive. If anyone knew of their research, they would probably try to steal it for themselves, or sabotage it as an act of "protecting" the world from a power hungry mage.
Eccentricity. It also seems very likely that anyone attempting to delve into such forces would be a bit on the peculiar side, especially considering the danger of such research.
Magical aptitude. Obviously, a talent for magic.
Dominating/Controlling. I'm betting such a specimen would likely want to do everything him/herself, and would probably have a bunch of submissive lackeys for his/her experiments with the forces in question.

What you get with the majority of those characteristics, ironically, and I can sincerely say that it was not intended, is an Asura. They dissected the human Gods, give them some time, and they'll have dissected the Four Schools of Magic, and how to capitalize on them. Of course, they'll probably use it for weapons research, but keep that under wraps from the other races, under the guise of enhanced services from this research.

Humans probably haven't done it simply because they've been in and out of war and various conflicts for so long, they've never been at a time of peace to conduct such research. Although, one would think war would be a pressure for research into utilizing the primal forces of magic, it would seem not, or, that if it was, any who made any headway were killed in the process. It seems very likely that it is neither a safe nor easy task to try and tap into any one School of Magic, thus any hasty attempt would likely end in death, or disaster.

draxynnic · Jul 02, 2009, 01:18 PM // 13:18

I've generally thought of the Ritualist as not being tied to any bloodstone at all (or, if any, the Keystone, which if it's actually the Stone on which the Door of Komalie is located is already associated with a connection to the spirit world). Instead, all of their skills are based around invoking spirits from the spirit realm who act on their behalf. Binding rituals are obvious, but weapon and item skills could simply be channeling a spirit into an item or weapon instead of creating a free spirit. Ritualist 'spells' could simply be the Ritualist opening a small rift through which an appropriate spellcasting spirit can cast a spell through...

...or maybe in these cases there isn't actually a spirit involved, but the Ritualist is simply opening a rift to some part of the Mists where the energies of the Mists themselves have the desired effect when brought into the mortal world. But in this case, the Ritualist is still just opening the way - the actual energy that results, whether healing or destructive, is not directly controlled by the Ritualist the way a Monk or Elementalist may personally form and direct the magic they use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GmrLeon

Humans probably haven't done it simply because they've been in and out of war and various conflicts for so long, they've never been at a time of peace to conduct such research. Although, one would think war would be a pressure for research into utilizing the primal forces of magic, it would seem not, or, that if it was, any who made any headway were killed in the process. It seems very likely that it is neither a safe nor easy task to try and tap into any one School of Magic, thus any hasty attempt would likely end in death, or disaster.

War creates an effective pressure to hurry up and turn theories into practise, but you need a period of peace for the scientific development to occur in the first place. The nuclear bomb and jet engine, for instance, were all based on work done before the war, and that's just World War 2.

Konig Des Todes · Jul 02, 2009, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Personally, I don't think it is the Keystone at Abaddon's Mouth, but instead the bloodstone of Destruction - mainly because once the bloodstone is activated, the volcano erupts (along with the entire island chain being constantly active, which kind of goes against geology, while a volcano may always be active, it doesn't constantly spew out lava). It could also be the Denial bloodstone - as it denies use of the Door of Komalie - though it is stronger support for that bloodstone being the Destruction bloodstone.

People only consider that bloodstone the Keystone because people view it as stronger than the one in Bloodstone Fen, but I think the "strength" is due to the soul used and due to the proximity - which would mean the Soul Batteries are not as needed *though this is argued against by the ending cinematic showing the soul batteries to all go back up, even though that could be more game mechanic because all four go back up - and if it was Khilbron's soul that did that, then his soul would have split into 4, which goes against what we know of him in NF.

About the Ritualists themselves, I personally think that they access both the Destruction and Preservation bloodstones - but to a small degree each, which would be why their primary attribute (Spawning Power) doesn't help in such a way as the core professions do. I also always thought that the "old" Ritualist before the gift of magic was the use of the ashes/relics which "called upon their ancestors". And then magic strengthened the profession by allowing the binding ritual (calling upon the Underworld - like what is done during Wintersday in EN - just less dangerous because it's not a specific spirit and a smaller rift), weapon spells, and other spells.

Also, I'd like to bring up the major spells used in the past which could use more than one school of magic (and how those were used in it) - do note that there are two speculative spells (i.e., major incedents which may not be actual spells, but go off of theories that they were caused by spells).

Note: (?) means questionable on if that is an effect of the schools of magic

Jade Wind:

Preservation: It "preserved" the land and animals of the forest and sea
Aggression: caused the survivors to be more aggressive (Naga, Wardens, the fish and plants (?))
Destruction: As shown in the Factions hi-res cinematic, the temple was highly destroyed.
Denial: Denial of movement once hit.

Searing:

Preservation: Kept some things (on both sides) alive *even all the plants didn't burn* (questionable)
Aggression: the surviving plants *aloes attack on sight in post* became more aggressive (along with the land itself *elementals*)
Destruction: Destroying the life of the land.
Denial: Denial of growth.

Cataclysm:

Preservation: Preserved Khilbron and some Orrians *possibly the closer ones are the more "preserved"*.
Aggression: Re-animated Khilbron and the Orrians as undead
Destruction: Destroyed the land
Denial: Denial of souls from moving on to the Rift (not all affected by this)

Scarab Plague (this would be the "possibly"): This theory goes on the idea that Palawa Joko turning into a lich was the cause of the Scarab Plague

Preservation: It resurrected the Scarabs from the eggs within people along with the preservation of Joko
Aggression: Re-animated the dead
Destruction: ?
Denial: Denial of souls moving on to the Rift

And for the heck of it:

First "Searing" (that is guessed to be depicted in the Scriptures of Abaddon and caused by the cauldron of cataclysm copy in the Crystal Overlook)

Preservation: ?
Aggression: Turned the water itself hostile
Destruction: Destroyed the Forgotten Ships via falling meteors
Denial: Denial of plantlife in (most of) the Crystal Sea turning Desert. (?)

draxynnic · Jul 03, 2009, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konig Des Todes

Personally, I don't think it is the Keystone at Abaddon's Mouth, but instead the bloodstone of Destruction - mainly because once the bloodstone is activated, the volcano erupts (along with the entire island chain being constantly active, which kind of goes against geology, while a volcano may always be active, it doesn't constantly spew out lava).

This could simply be that the Bloodstone's energy is being deposited into the Ring of Fire 'hotspot', increasing its activity (and especially increasing its energy when a huge amount of energy is dumped into it, such as when the soul batteries are recharged). Lava is destructive enough as it is, it really just needs the input of any sort of energy to go from gently simmering to BOOM!

Some evidence of this may even exist in showing what happened when all five were in the volcano - the explosion when it went off was enough to send one stone all the way to Bloodstone Fen. And these things don't exactly look light - to get that far, the energy of the eruption would probably have had to be sufficient to shame a nuclear weapon...

In your consideration of 'composite spells' - do keep in mind that while each Stone has the use it is most associated with, they can be used for other things as well. Monks can make their allies more aggressive, necromancers can heal and deny, elementalists can preserve, and everyone can destroy. If we continue to follow the theory that each of the core spellcasting classes draws from one stone, than that suggests that the names of the stones are just indications of what the power of that stone is best at, not necessarily that it is needed for any magic involving its speciality. Plus, some of those are (as you've kind of implied yourself) a bit of a reach - for instance, isn't the survival of 'some' in the Searing more likely just an indication that the survivors managed to reach cover?

Regarding the Ritualist... I'd actually consider Binding Rituals to have been among the Ritualist's capabilities before the introduction of the magic that would be tied to the Bloodstones. After all, recall that Rituals aren't spells - the Ritualists are simply able to summon spirits from other worlds in the same way as Rangers are able to summon spirits from nature (also apparently not a form of magic in the Bloodstone-related sense). The Ritualist has certainly grown more powerful as a result of the gift of magic, but is this because the Ritualists are using magic themselves... or is it because they can now invoke spirits that can use magic on their behalf?

Toutatis · Jul 03, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

This is what I'm thinking:

The four basic archetypes of magic were split apart once, via the four bloodstones and the keystone. Each bloodstone represents one arcane archetype and the keystone represents "something else" which I think might be the power of unity, harmony or stability. The basic hypothesis I'm using for this is that if all the bloodstones and the keystone were brought together, they could all be potentially brought back together to unite all magic again.

Now, bringing together four spellcasters (one from each magical archetype) and having them all combine their power into a single spell, there would still be something missing; we'd have the power of Destruction, we'd have the power of Preservation, we'd have the power of Aggression, we'd have the power of Denial, but we wouldn't have the power of the keystone. There wouldn't be something to unify and balance the magics together so that the magic could be released in a controlled manner with all four archetypes behaving as unified magic.

A couple of quick examples to highlight my point:

If you take a look at the Searing, which was supposedly triggered by four Charr casters, it's clear that one magical archetype became predominant in the resulting spell: Destruction. The power of Preservation seems to have been weakened in the effects of the spell, and I would argue that Aggression and Denial didn't play that much of a part either as the Charr were aggressively competing with the humans for the geographical area before the Searing happened as well. In the end, the only thing that was changed by the Searing was the huge crater where Ascalon used to be.

In a similar way, let's look at the Jade Wind which I would put forward as an example of Denial falling into the most prominent effect with Destruction being forced into the back seat. With the sea and forests being turned to jade and stone respectively, the primary effect would have been the denial of natural resources - the availability of food and the most basic building material (wood) would have been greatly reduced, planting the seeds of Aggression as people and animals fight more furiously over what usable resources are left. Preservation shines here too - what was "flash fossilised" in the shockwave would never age, never move, never disappear (preservation doesn't have to mean living). As far as the actual Destruction of the Jade Wind, that was all localised at the Harvest Temple (which even then still seems to be relatively intact, despite being half-encased in jade).

Back to my point. The two examples I've just given do show incredible displays of magical power, but they don't show the four archetypes in equal measures. If we were to try to combine all four types together, we would need to have a balancing force; we'd need something with the power of the keystone if the result would truly be a reunification of all four powers.

The question I'd like to pose is: What is the true nature of the keystone's power, and is that power represented or concentrated in any artifact, any profession, anything at all, anywhere in Tyria?

Nodakim · Jul 03, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

The dominant magics in the Searing and Jade win just probably prove the teory itself,you cant equaly control all magics,one has to be dominant to the user or a user of a group has to be dominant.(So,the Elementalist which participated in the Searing was the dominant one)
This could be on purpose also,so basicly the desired effect was achieved and you can manipulate the dominant magic in between the group/user.